Thursday, May 31, 2007

Key To The Highway: Interfaith Issues ... Gimme a Break!



Biggies has compiled the news nicely for us on the Federal Court's rejection of Azlina's application. Refer here and here.

I love to write on it at length (but not in mood yet) on this Azlina Jeilani and various Islam bashing issues (but claimed not to be so and merely) camouflaged (as I see it) as a civil liberty issue. This bloody apostacy and interfaith issues are just pure humbugs!

If she wants to convert out, get the clearance from Syariah Court. Thats the rule. Abide by it! They say follow God rule. She is baptised already, so Syariah court doesn't apply?

In the case of Muslim women under detention at a faith rehabilitation centre that married a Hindu and have kids, they say its inhuman to deny her to her family. She is a Muslim, isn't it? Now its humanitarian issue?

Suzy Teo converted to Islam below legal age but met Islam's baligh and berakal age. Lost in the court for she is a minor. No to God's law but court's law? Where is it about her freedom to profess her chosen religion?

IFC not adjudicatory but the fine line says the state has to listen to their recomendation. What the f**k these lawyers think we are? Stupid? Blind?

All these Xenophobic prick with hidden hands workign in concert! If these are private issues, why is the American based Beckett's funding her defense and expensive legal team? Why is some I called certain deviant Muslim groups getting Konrad Adreneur Foundation's funding and assistance? Why is Singapore sympathiser New Straits Times and Sun giving much voice to those super liberal Muslims and refuse the right of replies by progressive and more authoritative Muslim groups?

However, I am not without compassion. The Subashini's case is a tragedy. I felt the husband or precisely the ex-husband lacked finesse. Why did he force his faith on the kids? Preach it to them with kindness and wisdom. Anyway, this is a family matter, sort it. Why revert to lawyers?

The way I see it. All this interfaith issues are tragedies we inherited from the colonial legal tradition. If as Malik Imtiaz says, secular court is superior to the syariah court, he should be reminded that the syariah court exist more than 460 years ago here. Respect that!

We have to find resolutions to this differences.

Legal avenue is not a solution for it is adversarial. Forcing a choice only makes one side happy. Whoever lawyers claim they are embracing humanity are just hogwash. They only love a good fight! They are the ones who created all these interfaith quarells, be them Muslims or otherwise.
Political approach will not make it any better. The might is only right. Anyway politician have no balls to takeup a sensitive issue like this. The opposition would perhaps liek to take it up but its more for political mileage.

Lets return society's problem back to society for resolution. Let the conversant "man of cloth"s sit together to resolve it. They are all good people. I hope the men and women of religion resolve it amicably and consistent with each other's faith. There should be a way and a way must be found.

Too much excitement today and of late. I need a break and some stuff to do. Off Terengganu way...

35 comments:

BigDogDotCom said...

"Constitution is the Supreme Law". Now that the Chief Justice has interpreted the Constitution, will everyone please abide by that!

Anonymous said...

You said:
"Why did he force his faith on the kids? Preach it to them with kindness and wisdom."

Ahem...
This applies only to Hindus?
...

AHIRUDIN ATTAN said...

bro, i'll send some of my visitors to read your piece. cheers.

kerp said...

2 days hv passed since the verdict and how disheartening it is reading all the comments in blogs and forums condemning islam.

as big bro put it, Chief Justice has interpreted the contitution, they shld abide by it. sadly tho its not as easy as that simply bcos the chief justice himself is a muslim. I wonder how things wld be if the decision went the other way round? its catch 22 from a muslim point of view.

this just suck, aint it.

Anonymous said...

Isu sebenar adalah "kenapa boleh jadi sampai murtad tu".

Namun, saya tabik abang-abang semua yang bersungguh-sungguh dalam hal ini.

Saya masih gagal dalam memperjuangkan reformasi dan peranan alim ulama dalam thread Islam dan Bangsa Melayu di KMU satu ketika dahulu. Sayapun dah quit forum KMU di sana... susah nak perjuang isu secara ilmiah.

Para alim ulama sekarang dan masyarakat Islam berada Thawilul lahm dan ghazwatul fikri.

Sekarang, saya baharu memahami CWT.

TM-Blitz

FK said...

"If she wants to convert out, get the clearance from Syariah Court. Thats the rule. Abide by it!"

read the following shariah legislation PENALIZING any act or words of apostasy. before u can even get your application heard, u r ALREADY fined and locked up in 'pusat bimbingan'.

therefore, the other way of saying what u said is:

murtads, GO BANG YOURSELF ON THE SHARIAH COURT'S WALLS. u r lucky already that we don't execute u.

-----------------------

Melaka
http://www.esyariah.gov.my/portal/page?_pageid=185,79674&_dad=portal2&_schema=PORTAL2

ENAKMEN KESALAHAN SYARIAH ( NEGERI MELAKA ) 1991
6/1991
Bahagian BAHAGIAN IV KESALAHAN - KESALAHAN LAIN
Bab

Seksyen 66 - Percubaan murtad.

(1) Apabila seseorang Islam dengan sengaja, sama ada dengan perbuatan atau perkataan atau dengan cara apa jua pun, mengaku hendak keluar dari Agama Islam atau mengisytiharkan dirinya sebagai orang yang bukan Islam, Mahkamah hendaklah, jika berpuashati bahawa seseorang itu telah melakukan sesuatu yang boleh ditafsirkan telah cuba menukarkan iktikad dan kepercayaan Agama Islam sama ada dengan pengakuan atau perbuatannya sendiri, memerintahkan orang itu supaya ditahan di Pusat Bimbingan Islam untuk tempoh tidak melebihi enam bulan dengan tujuan pendidikan dan orang itu diminta bertaubat mengikut hukum syarak.

(2) Jika seseorang yang telah diperintahkan supaya ditahan di bawah subseksyen (1)-

(a) bertaubat dengan serta-merta, Mahkamah hendaklah, setelah mengesahkan taubatnya itu, membebaskan orang tersebut; atau

(b) jika orang itu pada bila-bila masa semasa dalam tahanan telah bertaubat, Pegawai Penjaga hendaklah melaporkan perkara itu kepada Mahkamah dan Mahkamah hendaklah memanggil orang itu dan setelah mengesahkan taubatnya itu, hendaklah membuat satu perintah untuk membebaskannya.

(3) Pegawai Penjaga hendaklah menyerahkan satu laporan kemajuan berhubung dengan orang yang ditahan itu kepada Mahkamah pada setiap minggu.

(4) Pusat Bimbingan Islam hendaklah diwartakan sebagai Pusat Tahanan di dalam Warta.

Perak
http://www.esyariah.gov.my/portal/page?_pageid=185,79653&_dad=portal2&_schema=PORTAL2

ENAKMEN JENAYAH (SYARIAH) 1992
3/1992
Bahagian BAHAGIAN IV KESALAHAN BERHUBUNGAN DENGAN MARUAH AGAMA DAN INSTITUSINYA
Bab

Seksyen 13 - Perbuatan atau perkataan murtad.
Seseorang Islam yang dengan sengaja, sama ada dengan perbuatan atau perkataan atau dengan cara apa jua pun, mengaku hendak keluar daripada Agama Islam atau mengisytiharkan dirinya sebagai orang yang bukan Islam adalah melakukan suatu kesalahan mempersendakan Agama Islam dan hendaklah, apabila disabitkan, dikenakan hukuman denda tidak melebihi tiga ribu ringgit atau penjara selama tempoh tidak melebihi dua tahun atau kedua-duanya.

Terengganu
http://www2.esyariah.gov.my/esyariah/mal/portalv1/undangbm.nsf/maintrg/DDEEE5F6293AF1FC48256F85000279D3?OpenDocument

ENAKMEN KESALAHAN JENAYAH SYARIAH (TAKZIR) (TERENGGANU) 2001
7/2001
Bahagian BAHAGIAN II KESALAHAN YANG BERHUBUNGAN DENGAN ‘AQIDAH
Bab

Seksyen 38 - Takfir.
(1) Tertakluk kepada subseksyen (2), mana-mana orang yang mengatakan atau menohmahkan dengan perkataan, sama ada secara lisan atau bertulis, atau dengan isyarat atau gambaran tampak, atau dengan apa-apa perbuatan, aktiviti atau perlakuan, atau dengan menganjurkan, menaja atau membuat perkiraan bagi apa-apa aktiviti atau selainnya dengan apa-apa cara, bahawa mana-mana orang yang menganut agama Islam atau orang yang tergolong dalam apa-apa kumpulan, golongan atau perihalan orang yang menganut agama Islam-
(a) adalah kafir;
(b) tidak lagi menganut agama Islam;
(c) tidak sepatutnya diterima, atau tidak boleh diterima, sebagai menganuti agama Islam; atau
(d) tidak mempercayai, mengikuti, menganuti atau tergolong dalam, agama Islam,
adalah melakukan suatu kesalahan dan apabila disabitkan boleh didenda tidak melebihi lima ribu ringgit atau dipenjarakan selama tempoh tidak melebihi tiga tahun atau kedua-duanya.

(2) Subseksyen (1) tidaklah terpakai bagi-
(a) apa-apa jua yang dilakukan oleh mana-mana Mahkamah atau pihak berkuasa agama yang ditubuhkan, dibentuk atau dilantik oleh atau di bawah mana-mana undang-undang bertulis dan yang diberi kuasa untuk membuat atau mengeluarkan apa-apa keputusan mengenai apa-apa perkara yang berhubungan dengan agama Islam; dan
(b) apa-apa jua yang dilakukan oleh mana-mana orang menurut atau mengikut apa-apa keputusan yang dibuat atau dikeluarkan oleh Mahkamah atau pihak berkuasa sedemikian, sama ada atau tidak keputusan itu adalah secara bertulis atau jika bertulis, sama ada atau tidak ia disiarkan dalam Warta.

Selangor
http://www.esyariah.gov.my/portal/page?_pageid=185,79639&_dad=portal2&_schema=PORTAL2

ENAKMEN JENAYAH SYARIAH (SELANGOR) 1995
9/1995
Bahagian BAHAGIAN II KESALAHAN YANG BERHUBUNGAN DENGAN ‘AQIDAH
Bab

Seksyen 6 - Takfir.
(1) Tertakluk kepada subseksyen (2), seseorang yang mengatakan atau mengaitkan melalui kata-kata, sama ada secara lisan atau tulisan, atau dengan isyarat, atau dengan gambaran tampak, atau dengan apa-apa perbuatan, kegiatan atau kelakuan, atau dengan mengelolakan, menganjurkan atau mengaturkan apa-apa kegiatan, atau selainnya dengan apa-apa jua cara, bahawa mana-mana orang yang menganuti agama Islam, atau orang-orang yang tergolong dalam mana-mana kumpulan, kelas atau perihalan orang yang menganuti agama Islam-
(a) adalah orang kafir;
(b) telah berhenti menganuti agama Islam;
(c) tidak patut diterima, atau tidak dapat diterima sebagai menganuti agama Islam; atau
(d) tidak mempercayai, mengikuti, menganuti atau tergolong dalam agama Islam,
adalah melakukan suatu kesalahan dan apabila disabitkan boleh didenda tidak melebihi lima ribu ringgit atau dipenjarakan selama tempoh tidak melebihi tiga tahun atau kedua-duanya.

(2) Subseksyen (1) tidaklah terpakai bagi-
(a) apa-apa jua yang dilakukan oleh mana-mana Mahkamah atau pihak berkuasa agama yang ditubuhkan, dibentuk atau dilantik melalui atau di bawah mana-mana undang-undang bertulis dan yang diberi oleh undang-undang bertulis kuasa untuk memberikan atau mengeluarkan apa-apa fatwa atau keputusan tentang apa-apa perkara mengenai agama Islam; atau
(b) apa-apa jua yang dilakukan oleh mana-mana orang menurut atau mengikut apa-apa fatwa atau keputusan yang diberikan atau dikeluarkan oleh Mahkamah atau pihak berkuasa agama itu, sama ada atau tidak fatwa atau keputusan itu adalah secara bertulis atau, jika bertulis, sama ada atau tidak disiarkan dalam Warta.

Johor
http://www.esyariah.gov.my/portal/page?_pageid=185,79709&_dad=portal2&_schema=PORTAL2

ENAKMEN KESALAHAN JENAYAH SYARIAH 1997
4/1997
Bahagian BAHAGIAN V KESALAHAN PELBAGAI
Bab

Seksyen 31 - Takfir.
(1) Tertakluk kepada subseksyen (2), mana-mana orang yang mengatakan atau menohmahkan dengan perkataan, sama ada secara lisan atau bertulis, atau dengan isyarat atau gambaran tampak, atau dengan apa-apa perbuatan, aktiviti atau pelakuan, atau dengan menganjurkan, menaja atau membuat perkiraan bagi apa-apa aktiviti atau selainnya dengan apa-apa cara, bahawa mana-mana orang yang menganut agama Islam atau orang yang tergolong dalam apa-apa kumpulan, golongan atau perihalan orang yang menganut agama Islam-
(a) adalah kafir;
(b) tidak lagi menganut agama Islam;
(c) tidak sepatutnya diterima, atau tidak boleh diterima, sebagai menganuti agama Islam; atau
(d) tidak mempercayai, mengikuti, menganuti, atau tergolong dalam, agama Islam,

adalah melakukan suatu kesalahan dan apabila disabitkan boleh didenda tidak melebihi lima ribu ringgit atau dipenjarakan selama tempoh tidak melebihi tiga tahun atau kedua-duanya.
(2) Subseksyen (1) tidaklah terpakai bagi-
(a) apa-apa jua yang dilakukan oleh mana-mana Mahkamah atau pihak berkuasa agama yang ditubuhkan, dibentuk atau dilantik oleh atau di bawah mana-mana undang-undang bertulis dan yang diberikan kuasa untuk membuat atau mengeluarkan apa-apa keputusan mengenai apa-apa perkara yang berhubungan dengan agama Islam; dan
(b) apa-apa jua yang dilakukan oleh mana-mana orang menurut atau mengikut apa-apa keputusan yang dibuat atau dikeluarkan oleh Mahkamah atau pihak berkuasa sedemikian, sama ada atau tidak keputusan itu adalah secara bertulis atau, jika bertulis, sama ada atau tidak ia disiarkan dalam Warta.

Kedah
http://www.esyariah.gov.my/portal/page?_pageid=185,79716&_dad=portal2&_schema=PORTAL2

ENAKMEN KANUN JENAYAH SYARIAH 1988
9/1988
Bahagian BAHAGIAN II KESALAHAN-KESALAHAN
Bab

Seksyen 24 - Takfir.

(1) Mana-mana orang yang mengatakan atau mengaitkan melalui kata-kata, sama ada bertutur atau tulisan, atau melalui isyarat, atau melalui gambaran yang boleh dilihat atau melalui apa-apa perbuatan, kegiatan atau kelakuan, atau dengan mengelola, menggalak atau memperaturkan apa-apa kegiatan, atau selainnya dengan apa jua cara, bahawa mana-mana orang yang menganuti Agama Islam, atau orang-orang yang tergolong dalam mana-mana kumpulan, kelas atau perihalan orang-orang yang menganuti Agama Islam :
(i) adalah orang kafir, atau
(ii) telah berhenti menganuti Agama Islam, atau
(iii) tidak patut diterima, atau tidak dapat diterima, sebagai menganuti Agama Islam, atau
(iv) tidak mempercayai, mengikuti, menganuti, atau tergolong dalam Agama Islam,
adalah bersalah atas suatu kesalahan dan boleh, apabila disabitkan, dikenakan hukuman denda tidak melebihi lima ribu ringgit atau dikenakan hukuman penjara selama tempoh tidak melebihi tiga tahun atau kedua-duanya :

Dengan syarat bahawa seksyen ini tidak boleh dipakai bagi:
(a) apa-apa perkara yang dilakukan oleh mana-mana pihak berkuasa Agama yang ditubuhkan, dibentuk atau dilantik oleh atau di bawah mana-mana Undang-undang bertulis dan yang diberikan oleh Undang-undang bertulis dengan kuasa memberi atau mengeluarkan apa-apa fatwa atau keputusan atau apa-apa perkara mengenai Agama Islam;
(b) apa-apa perkara yang dilakukan oleh mana-mana orang menurut atau mengikut apa-apa fatwa atau keputusan yang diberi atau dikeluarkan oleh pihak berkuasa Agama itu, sama ada fatwa atau keputusan itu adalah secara bertulis ataupun tidak, atau jika secara bertulis, sama ada ianya disiarkan dalam Warta ataupun tidak.

(2) Mana-mana orang yang mentafsir secara menyeleweng mana-mana fatwa yang dikeluarkan oleh pihak berkuasa Agama adalah melakukan suatu kesalahan dan boleh, apabila disabitkan, dikenakan hukuman denda tidak melebihi lima ribu ringgit atau dikenakan hukuman penjara selama tempoh tidak melebihi tiga tahun atau kedua-duanya.

Anonymous said...

yeah.. 300 muslim gather outside the court and pray is normal comunity gathering .. If it is 300 christian then it's the end of the world for Malaysia.. BTW, wat religious FREEDOM ?

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
caliibre said...

What a sad day for Malaysia. The court verdict against Lina Joy has destroyed her bid to have her religious choice be seen as a matter of personal conscience rather than a state imposed obligation. Whilst the angry young men rejoice and shout “Allah-o-Akbar”, the Muslim religion again trumps the constitution and provides yet another early indication of the cracks forming in this previously rights based democracy.

This verdict and other sad cases such as that of Subashini Rajasperhaps, may mean that the country’s tourist promotion board needs to rework its “Truly Asia” campaign. Perhaps now they need to market as ‘Malaysia truly Arabia’. Actually the government sometime back removed its English street names so it should be no problem for them to re-brand KL as the centre of “ASIARABIA” and perhaps they could call it ‘Riyadh Lumpur’. Oh yes and of course Putrajaya could become Meccaminor.

Now get the tune in the head and its… Malaysia…. truly Arabia… yessssirrrr sounds great.

Ric
http://caliibre.blogspot.com/

Anonymous said...

The highest court shud jz argue on point of law and not from the facts..unless 'islam' on Muslim's Mykad is a must without Q, really i don't see the rationale on NRD's act. I'm sure they cud hv alerted any auth and not act like they're some Muslim appointed auth..

Of course it shudn't be some islam bashing session, but neither it should be a personal decision of the judges as well..sad reality of judiciary of Malaysia

freelunch2020 said...

u said: "If she (Lina Joy) wants to convert out, get the clearance from Syariah Court. Thats the rule. Abide by it!"

agree. i feel lots of malaysians esp non-muslims fail to see how muslims, fortunately or unfortunately, have to go through the Syariah Courts as the first instance for remedy under the amended constitution.

also, i feel the issue could be handled differently, esp with regards to freedom of religion for muslims.

i believe, and many will prob disagree, that to a large extent muslims have to decide how important freedom of religion is for them and find a solution within their community.

however, should some individuals fail to convert out after going through the syariah courts, then what should they do? i am still thinking about this one. bcos if they are in FACT (eg practice, etc) Christian/Buddhist/etc but their IC states they are muslim, would that be a lie? tricky.....

for me, i think if enough muslims want freedom of religion, they will just need to vote for leaders who will make the necessary constitutional amendments to article 121.

i believe there is a need to distinguish clearly between
1. the personal choice of faith, and
2. the legal aspects of her status as a malay.

i wish politicians esp from the opposition would stop playing up this issue which could potentially turn ugly.

for more of my comments, check out eli's blog...lazee ler

good write-up.

i really enjoy your analysis.

A Voice (from the Brick) said...

All those who wish to have a better understanding of the legal issues, particularly the long list on the various state enactment posted by FK, do read Wan Zafran's blog here http://www.wanzafran.com/2007/lina-joy-the-decision/" and here http://www.wanzafran.com/2007/lina-joy-the-decision-counsels-explanation/ regarding the legal issues.

FK - Murtad and takfir are different issues. FK shd differentiate between issue of devisionist within Islam and apostacy from Islam. Since you do not know what the heck you are posting, understadn teh issue by going to wan zafran's blog. That is why non Muslim has no business in muslim's affair.

Kerk - The law is not supposed to be for you and me to interpret and hope it follows to your version of interpretation. It is the judges that decide. If you do not respect for the law, then don't talk of the law for you just want the law to follow you.

Our constitution is to be understod from perspective of this country and not convenient logic and spirit of the constitution of other countries and those few claiming themselves to represent human.

My point again as I advocate is for a "community" consultative solution and not court adverserial solution or political vote seeking solution.

Let "men of cloth" resolve only call the lawyer in after an agreement has been agreed. So lawyers, please shut up and follow your clients. request

Freelunch2020 - I appreciate your concern for Muslim's freedom of religion. Once a Muslim, we read for more than 5 times a day "wanusuki wamahyaya wamamatyi lillahi rabbil alamin" means "our life and death for god's way".

Save your concern for the non Muslims. We are clear that we should not be infringing on their rights and we will handle our affair in accordance with the word of god to the effect, "You, your religion. Theirs, their religion".

For those like Lina Joy, you should know what you are supposed to do. Why do you waste time to try to be disruptive and listen quarelsome lawyers and foreigners like the Beckett FUnd and Konrad Adreneur Foundation?

Caliibre - Don't be emotional. Know you rfact and issue before you wish to argue. Don't apply outside criteria into Malaysian scenario. If you are not here to argue or just venting out, thanks for your comment.

I share with you one thing. I do not like the slogan "Truly Asia". IF we want to market Malaysia for tourism, we shd be promoting the uniqueness of Malaysia and not all the characteristic of Asia, which we are not.

BTW Wan Zafran point out that syariah law has existed for more than 460 years to the years of 1136 in Kedah. If the Brit had not ame here and brought policies that disrupted the socio-political makeup of this country, the syariah court coudl have been the law that covers all aspect of life in Malaysia.

Husin Lempoyang said...

freelunch2020

no need to wonder anymore.

constitution is clear. the minite she is no more muslim, she is not a "constitutional" malay.

eng said...

''BTW Wan Zafran point out that syariah law has existed for more than 460 years to the years of 1136 in Kedah. If the Brit had not ame here and brought policies that disrupted the socio-political makeup of this country, the syariah court coudl have been the law that covers all aspect of life in Malaysia. ''

Dude,
This is no Alice the wonder land.
Without Brit, there will not be Malaysia, and this piece of land would have been taken by dutch / french or by any tom dick harry at that time. If one puts it that Brit distrupted the Social-politic of this country then without Brit, it would have been a completely different 'social' you are talking about. W/o brit, will the Malaysia be BETTER than where we are now? i seriously doubt it :) You and I may not even exist or may not even know BLOGGING. Not looking down at asian but facing the reality.
also , i haven't even talk about how many brit lives were lost during WW2 in malaya.
You won't know whether it's a blessing / disaster until you been there

sorry distracted a bit.

freelunch2020 said...

Hey A Voice,

Tks for response.

I can't help but be concerned for Muslims if I know them on a personal basis.

Let's say instead of Lina Joy, it is you or another close personal muslim friend who went to court in the same circumstances as Lina Joy, although it is likely that you would follow procedures.

Let's just assume for the sake of argument and illustration.

Although I don't know you well, but if you faced the same problem, I would still advise you to go to Syariah courts first as stipulated by the constitution, should you ask me for advice.

At the same time, I would be naturally concerned for you as a human being.

However, this does not mean I wish to interfere with the affairs of the Muslim community as per my earlier comment, its up to the community to sort it out.

But certain things, like concern and compassion, transcends religion or race for me personally.

If a muslim is being kicked around, I would be concerned enough to help him.

So if a muslim comes to me for help, i can't turn him away just because she is muslim and i am not so i will have to leave her to her community.

like a case of single mothers with babies born out of wedlock. if my friend has this problem, and as a result is ostracised by muslims and her family and turns to non-muslims, i would help her.

so concern is at a human level.

i feel for lina joy, a muslim, because she has suffered so much for something that she believes in. and i am concerned about her safety as there may be retaliation, even her lawyer received death threats and i understand mkini reported there was a 'fatwa' out on him.
--------
Non-muslims have almost absolute freedom of religion and I am grateful to the government for this liberty that I treasure. So there is no real concern for this. But freedom also has its own set of problems.
---------

Referring specifically to Lina Joy, my analysis from the public facts available is that this case was likely used to stir up religious sentiments.

For one, as a non-lawyer though I took two modules of law at uni, the case was not structured to win...but to get certain points across as per the appeal.

The fact that Lina did not first go to Syariah has already weakened her case as she did not follow procedures as a Malaysian Muslim.

If she did go quietly, i feel after some time, prob less than 6 years, she would have gotten what she wanted.

Or if the syariah courts rejected her, then she can test the case in civil courts using article 11, challenging the constitutionality of the amended article 121 (1) (A) or even challenging the integrity of listing herself as a muslim on her MyKAD when she is in practice, a non-muslim. she may also challenge the fairness of the syariah courts in dishing out the judgement.......

But she must first go to the syariah courts.

--------------
Again, I wish to reiterate that I do not wish to interfere with the Muslim community's affairs with regards to religion, but I will still be concerned for them on a human level.

Cheers.

A Voice (from the Brick) said...

Eng - The point that I wish to point out from quoting Wan Zafran's posting is to point out that syariah court is not "inferior" (to quote Malaik Imtiaz) to the Civil Court. It has its a long history and presence ehere way way way before British civil court.

I am fumingly offended with your sweeping high and mighty subsequent remark as though Malaysia or Nusantara Melayu are better off with the Brit and Immigrant presence.

I think you need to wake also from your dreamland. Here is a reality check of history.

Nusantara Melayu were doing well before the Portugese came in 1511. For that matter, all countries in Asia - India, China, THailand, Cambodia, and etc - South America, Africa, etc were thriving civilisation before the greedy occidents came.

When the Brit came here, they systematically pushed the Malays or THE citizen or THE original inhabitant into abject poverty. They were deprived proper education, job opportunity, amenities, trade, and excluded from development.

The immigrants were used. Enriching and empowering teh locals would be detrimental to their interest. So they brought in labours and traders from off shore.

When an invader return, the country shoudl be returned back to the original inhabitant and original status. The Brit brought in immigrants and left it behind as later day problems. SOme of these immigrants are in teh words of one British historian xenophobic and ethnocentric.

You think Malaysia will not exist and be better?

It will be better, far far better. That "Malaysia" will not have the interracial and interfaith problems with the presence of Immigrants. That "Malaysia" could be a world power, should Malaya could join with existing Indonesia and Philipines into Maphlindo as envisioned by Kesatuan Melayu Muda and Malay Nationalist Party.

Frankly, with much freedom and progress, without 466 years rape of our resources, that "Malaysia" is rich and will probably the one inventing computers, microchip, nanotechnology and blogging. But you won't probably be part of it.

Thats an in-your-face reality, ungrateful bigot!

Freelunch2020 - Human compassion is a great value to hold on to. Someone have to play that role like helping the unwed mother. YOU being compassionate to Azlina is understandable adn appreciated.

For me, these are the questions. Is she serious in her so-called marraige with her "boyfriend"? Does she has good intention in challenging it to make a legal precedent and create interfaith chaos?

As I see, NO and NO. From what I gather from people who know her and her character, she is an attitude that turn menace Malaysia can do without.

Azlina Jeilani has no good intention. She was supported by personalities, fringe Muslims and foreign elements out to force their western liberal agenda on the system and structure.

I will not mince my words. Thats "kurang ajar".

It is "kurang ajar" to put into question the constitutionalised social covenents - malay langage status, malay special position as original inhabitant and rakyat raja2 melayu, islam as dominant religion of the original inhabitant, status of the Raja2 melayu, and on the other hand the conferred citizenship to the immigrants and their rights and previlages as citizen.

WHy must it be questioned and seek review?

Is it feasible to demand the "immigrants" to relinquish their citizenship? Then, it should be not feasible to question our part of it.

Do shut up from questioning on what your forefathers has agreed. Stop trying to comb the constitution and lawbook for loopholes ...

Here is another in your face reality - we are not a western democrasy country with all their so-called human rights and liberal ideas. Live with it or move on ....

QueenB said...

Aye, aye!

eng said...

A voice
As i've said earlier that you never know if it's a blessing/disaster until you been there.
I see the brit occupation in MY in 2 sides, the goods and the bads.
And i believe the malaya will not be any better (or loose out from others) without brit. this is something no one can prove unfortunately.
Also i believe it would have been taken by others like in the neighbouring countries if not brit. Or if it was that well defended, then it wouldn't have been taken up by the brit?
All these become empty arguments as it's something that never've happen in the past, so i will not argue further with you.
However i would like to say that you have your strong view and it would have made a difference if you were born at that time.
I also find your argument aggresive, or slightly offensive, and i think u need to be cool and see things from more perspectives instead of letting it to go over your head.
Anyway .. just my thought.

BrightEyes said...

I find it highly amusing that some people paste the "No Fear" logo, and posters of "Liberty, Freedom, and Justice"... then ask folks like freelunch to stop questioning (pun not intended) socalled social contracts and accept the status quo... discriminatory it may be to the nonBumis and nonUmnoputra Bumis.

Voice's reply to Eng at 8:13 appears he still views the nonMalay Malaysians as immigrants (kaum pendatang), and with the deluded belief that somehow the Malay archipelago would have become a superpower had these 'immigrants' not come over here. Amazing how little it takes for a racist to shed his mask and reveal his true self.

Methinks the Mahatirists have now resorted to the Internets & alternative media and rebranded themselves as fighters for freedom, justice, transparency, etc. A little more than 5 years ago they had nice jobs in Jln Riong singing the praises of The M. But its not difficult to see behind this facade.

A Voice (from the Brick) said...

Eng - On your comment that I am offensive, thats a compliment. Don't aspect me to lie down when you say words like "This is no Alice the wonder land".

WHat about sindiran from one anonymous "Ahem... This applies only to Hindu?" How do like it when all "the comments in blogs and forums condemning islam".

Another anonymous makign assumption that "If it is 300 christian then it's the end of the world for Malaysia.. BTW, wat religious FREEDOM?"

Perhaps you or whoever else are so used to attacking and do negative labelling of Malays and Muslim, without a serious answer?

Perhaps, you would expect a Malay to be apologetic, defensive, and politely quietened, when their constitutional rights is attack.

Not this one, buster. I know my history, my rights and my politics.

My impression from blog and MT comments are that majority only respect authority and force, not "budi bahasa" that we Malays are famously known for.

What kind of citizens did Malaya conferred citizenship to, when they do not respect with 5th state ideology or Rukunegara to "Kesopanan dan kesusilaan." No wonder we have constant interfaith and interracial undercurrents.

Now looks like they do not abide to "Keluhuran perlembagaan dan undang-undang" to not respect judges.

A Voice (from the Brick) said...

Eng - Do see my point why I have to act such. Look at the quick, generous and dumb generalisation and labelling so typical as per I quote from brighteyes below:

"...discriminatory it may be to the nonBumis and nonUmnoputra Bumis."

"...appears he still views the nonMalay Malaysians as immigrants (kaum pendatang), and with the deluded belief that somehow the Malay archipelago would have become a superpower had these 'immigrants' not come over here. Amazing how little it takes for a racist to shed his mask and reveal his true self."

"Methinks the Mahatirists have now resorted to the Internets & alternative media and rebranded themselves as fighters for freedom, justice, transparency, etc. A little more than 5 years ago they had nice jobs in Jln Riong singing the praises of The M. But its not difficult to see behind this facade."

Brighteye - I do not know you but I know Freelunch2020 personally. You do not need to defend her. The first part of my answer is to her. The rest is for Azlina Jeilani.

Azlina Jeilani "kurang ajar"ness for trying to put into question our constitutional rights. Unless you intend to "kurang ajar", I do not see a need for you to be retaliatory. As the Malay proverb say, "Siapa makan cili, dia berasa pedas?"

All those boldened accusation requires an elaboration by yourself for it is out of the topic. Eng has insulted me for quotign history and that is how I replied. Are trying to engage me on historical issues?

Let me ask you?

What is so racist to say that you and eng are pendatang? Are you saying you are not an immigrant or decended from immigrant? Are you so inadequate to not be able admit that?

Why do you have to call me racist for saying this country will be greater if the Brit and colonialist had not come? Didn't the British were the one who who made a liberal immigration policy from 1830s?

Furthermore, it is a known fact that any country in the world woudl be better of without any colonisation butting in and raping the country. Are you pro colonialist like Eng also?

Your racism accusation is such a cliche and typical tantrum of childish mentality that is quick with its myopic accusation of racism. In most cases, such actions hides your own racism.

There is this proverb "Masuk kandang kambing menguak. Masuk kandang lembu menguak." Understand what you need to understand.

If I do not believe in free speech, I would have moderated comments. You have your free speech but do it without infringing on my legal rights.

If I say do not question, but you insist to kurang ajar and question, what can I do? But I know you have broken some law under the Sedition Act? I have not.

BrightEyes said...

Sdr. Voice,

Most of the nonMalays today have been here for generations, some even since the 1400s. They were born here, grew up here, went to school & college with you and I. They are Malaysians... not "pendatang"/"bangsa asing" or immigrants. To put them under a label as "pendatang" on criteria of their looks & skin color is to insinuate (and generalize) that they are STILL foreigners... not Real-Malaysian citizens.

Its sad some still view & label other races as perpetual immigrants, not realize the racism of it all, and get upset when others point it out. Siapa makan cili_____________________.

I'm not saying you're racist because you said Malaysia would be better if the colonialists didn't come barging in. Rather, I have issue with your ideas where you feel that the nonMalays are some sort of a hindrence/problem. A problem that is stopping a theoretical Malay superpower. To see a WHOLE ethnic group(S) as a problem and that this problem somehow won't exist if these "immigrant races" weren't around, now... that is racist. Anyway, how certain is it that Malaysia will really remain a monoethnic region for 600 years from 1400 till now had there been no colonial activity?

And no, I don't think colonialism was (and is) a good thing.


So now you're calling my response as cliched & a childish tantrum while you wave the Sedition Act at the end? All this with a 'NoFear' logo on your page? Priceless... just... priceless.

A Voice (from the Brick) said...

Brighteye said:

"Most of the nonMalays today have been here for generations, some even since the 1400s."

Yes there is written in history books, that non Malays, specificlly Chinese traders first significant settlement as early as 13th century in islands of Malay archipelago. The best known were the Ming Dynasty era in the first half of fifteenth century.

To say that MOST are here for generations, perhaps you shd see the racial composition of Chinese in 1835 was 7.7% in Peninsular Malaysia (Malaya). The 1884 census shows percentage as 29.4% and reach a high 38.4% in 1947. Bulk of them was returned back in the WW times. The bulk of the immigrant populatinn came to the Straits Settlements of Spore, Penang, and Melaka to reach a 60% majority.

Tell me if there is no immigration riding on the back of the British at the expense of the systematically discriminated locals (this point you refure to admit).

Perhaps, my reactive response to use the term "pendatang" and your understanding as perpetual immigrant upset you. YOur community wants to be accepted as not a foreigner.

OK. Tell me! Have your community as a whole (save for the individual) stop behaving like a "pendatang"? Please do not hide behind excuse of yor rights to maintain your culture!

These are perceptions the general Malays have and I do not see attempts to remove such perceptions but typical combative ways like you, anonymous and Eng had done. It would do you good to listen instead being cyber gun slinger.

- Why do you need to maintain and defend vehemently the vernacular schools, which is originally a school by immigrant for immigrant meant to return?

- Despite the guarantees under the Constitution that will be no constraint as individual to maintain your culture and religion in your daily life, ownership of assets, and citizenship rights in your daily life, why do you continue to question the status of Bahasa Malayu cum Malaysia, Islam, National Cultural, and Artile 153?

- Why do your community insist to remain segregated generally by your education system, refusal to acquire Malay language skill, consistently chauvanistic and self serving tendencies of your community activists, aloof (with generally tendency to have no appreciation of the locals' adab sopan dan budi bahasa) with your stereotyping of malays, resisted attemps for a integration (not assimilation) (eg sekolah wawasan), among others?

- WHat about the xenophobic ethnoentric practises and komplot of reverse discrimination and retaliation?

Are these not typical behaviours of pendatang?

If you are no more pendatang, why don't your community exhibit, at least the attitudes of the Babas of Melaka/Penang and Chettiars of Melaka, by tahu:

Masuk kandang kambing mengembek, Masuk kandang lembu menguak

If you have issues with my statement that "nonMalays are some sort of a hindrence/problem", you do not have to insist and revert to your quick not-racist-but-still-racist labelling and sweeping statements. Such stereotype attitudes breed racism. Have I not present you reality?

Why are you so insecure of my mentioning of the Sedition Act, which you by your quick draw mcgraw start using a cliche "Hishamuddin" accusation ie "waving"?

I know I have not commit a sedition act to question your citizenship (but merely stating a fact and opinion) but you have cross the boundary on my part. I do not have to wave anything, you already committed it! Isn't uttering seditous issues similar to the racist and disruptive act that caused 13 May 1969, which chinese chauvanist activist trying to blame it on Tun Razak and Dato Harun?

If you do not understand what the "Blogger United" logo with its "No Fear" slogan, useless ... just useless. Its abt responsible blogging and fight agst bully.

Am I not telling you to be responsible? They truth is a painful reality. Now you owe me one.

Cakap baik2 misti tak gaduh said...

Itu british jahat paksa suruh ambik pasal dia olang tak mahu kasi british citizenship sama lu olang. Dia bikin rosak malaya, lepas tu tinggal problem sama kita, brighteyes.

Ada yang tolak ansur, ambik juga lu punya latok sama moyang. Tapi lu jgn banyak langsi. Dah kaya pun mahu lagi ini itu. Ada power duit, lu manyak salah guna.

Latuk moyang lu masa mahu jadi rakyat sanggup janji ini itu. Sikalang, manyak kulang ajar, mahu soal macam2. Apa punya janji? Latok moyang janji, cucu cicit mungkir. Hal olang melayu dan islam macam azlina jeilani pun lu mahu masuk campur kah?

Lu punya uncle LKY pun manyak jahat punya orang, belakang banyak main jahat. Kalau dah lulok sini 200 latut tahun, misti tahu budi bahasa dan adab sopan, serta hidup tolak ansur. Dia banyak rasis juga, sama orang melayu sana.

Apa lu mahu cakap sindir in BU. Lu mahu ada hak kurang ajar ke? Jadi orang lain misti ada hak untuk kulang ajar baik. Lu boleh cakap apa suka, dan semua olang boleh cakap apa suka.

Kalau cakap baik2, tak ada orang marah. Lu cakap kasar, orang hantam balik, lu marah. Itu pasai kita jangan kiasu dan bialap.

Anonymous said...

But how can u call the historical 'pendatang' as pendatang now? while in sabah, illegal immigrants were easily given citizenship and there are more filipino and indonesian stalls than local...we as locals can only call them 'pendatang' under our breath while some bigger counterparts call them as 'brothers'....Somemore minibuses here are in red and white colour, looks familiar to some flag colors?

Wake up! not all malaysians are malay! y can't non-malays be entitled to keep their heritage and know their own roots.
would u wan ur child to be known by another man's surname? Surely not (or mayb some man wouldnt mind).

Anonymous said...

What about those of mix parentage? are they pendatang as well bcoz they hv some drop of the pendatang's blood?

I'm sure a lot of 'Your Royal Highnessess' here are of mix parentage (malay and some other), erm like Hang Li Po's kids(if existent)?

Or are the pendatang called 'pendatang' jz bcoz they're non-muslim? I'm sure u wouldn't wan to call a Malay/Chinese pendatang right? How about a Chinese/Indian who is converted to Islam? or a non-muslim Chinese/Indian?

How do we call them? 'pendatang'?

Common, accept the fact tht all of us is a pendatang on this earth la. Only the neolitiks and the mesopolitiks guys can say who is and who is not a pendatang on this piece of land. You're priviledged jz bcoz ur ancestors came earlier than ours.

This jz show 2 fallacies:
1. Malaysia cannot be truly Asian
2. Malaysians can't think Globally

cakap baik2 misti tak gaduh said...

ini dua anon olang sama lah. tulis sama stail.

macam mana lu mahu di terima sebagai rakyat, cakap sikit sudah panggil olah neolitik and mesopolitik. ingat olang tak faham.

lu latang sini tapi lu banyak act and biadap. Olang melayu pantang besar olang biadap dan kurang ajar. Lu explain amacam mana pun dia tak mahu dengar. Dia akan panggil lu orang pendatang.

Orang melayu tak suka orang biadap, tak tahu bertolak ansur, orang tak ada sopan, ... Jangan sentuh olang melayu punya ugama dan maruah, mati pun dia talak hal.

LU olang manyak bodoh lah. OLang melayu senang terima olang. Senang di pujuk dan senang ajak bincang. Tanah melayu sulah lama global. OLang melayu senang telima mana2 olang sebagai rakyat. Gua tak yakin negeri china terbuka kepada foreigner. Berapa ratus tahun, dia fikiran banyak tertutup.

Tapi lu olang banyak biadap, olang melayu tak akan terima lu sebagai orang Malaysia tapi akan sentiasa dan bila2 panggil lu olang sebagai pendatang.

Tak semua cina ini macam. Tak semua india ini macam, tapi india lebih mudah dna mahu usaha untuk menyesuai dengan keadaan. Yg educated manyak cilaka. Manyak kes murtad anak dara melayu (macam lina joy) melibatkan budak india.

ugama olang melayu kata anjing dan babi itu haram. jadi jangan perangai macam anjing suka menyalak dan macam babi tamak kuat makan dan sundul tak ada sopan. itu saja..

Anonymous said...

cakap baik2 misti tak gaduh-->
assuming u r a man..i was referring to this..

(What is so racist to say that you and eng are pendatang? Are you saying you are not an immigrant or decended from immigrant? Are you so inadequate to not be able admit that?)

it's not abt tatasusila etc..
Mind you, a lot of our country leaders are of mix parentage and have at least a drop of the pendatang's blood. So by logic, what's the fume when these (partial) pendatang are also governing the country?

Forget politics, it's just plain dirty n childish in M'sia. If you have too much to eat, come and look at the poorest of the poor in M'sia and try yourself to tell them that they're pendatang and serves them right.

Anonymous said...

and oh..you may want to have a read here
http://www.malaysianbar.org.my/content/view/9255/2/

although the author wasn't me..

cakap baik2 misti tak gaduh said...

anon tak ada nama

org melayu tak payah nak tunjuk2 org susah

jemaah pengusaha2 bar? itu mabuk punya olang, kita tak minum

Anonymous said...

suka hati lah..bongkak

cakap baik2 misti tak gaduh said...

turun kampung sayalah, manyak susah. anon tara nama, baru nampak sikit2, sudah bising.

itu sabah ada pulau, olang satu hari makan satu kali aja. ada tau ke?

bar council aiyeah!!!! ini orang suka gaduh saja. bila kalah, bising. dia saja betul.

Anonymous said...

perangai macam tu MP 'bocor'...bikin malu saja..

baik kau tidur di kampung saja lah

cakap baik2 misti tak gaduh said...

Balik Kwantung lah!!!! Balik kepala botak rambut tochang kepala botak lah!!!

Kampung ke bandar ke ini tanah air nenek moyang piat piut, nenek pada moyang .... hingga sekurangnya beberapa ribu tahun BC.

Baru datang berapa tahun mahu tunjuk act dan mahu soal2 orang.

Kalau dah makan babi dan simpan anjing, perangai pun ikut serupa!

A Voice (from the Brick) said...

Opps sorry you two - anon and cakap2.

This thread is gettingout of hand.

Telajak perahu boleh berundur
Telanjur kata ... susahlah.

I'm for the first time stopping a thread.

My Say